[Serious] I’m struggling to see Otto Porter over DeMar DeRozan, please explain.
【嚴肅討論】我實在看不出來奧托-波特比德瑪爾-德羅贊強的理由，誰能幫我解釋一下？
On ESPN’s player ranking for the next season they put players like Booker, Otto, Khris and Brown over a 4x allstar, 2nd team all-nba selection.
The most confusing was Otto. How is anyway is he better than DeMar other than defense? He’s a role player that didn’t reach his potential while DeRozan is a star.
ESPN在下賽季球員排名中將把布克、波特、米德爾頓和杰倫-布朗都排在了德羅贊剛進二陣的四屆全明星之前。
最令人費解的是波特。除了防守之外他哪裡有一點點地方比德羅贊要強呢？他只是一個沒有完全兌現天賦的角色球員罷了，德羅贊可是一位實實在在的明星啊。
[–]ColdWorldGotHotter 487 指標 6小時前
Definitely don’t see that either.
Demar is the better player and will have the better season
我也搞不懂。
德羅贊是一位更好的球員，而且下個賽季也會比波特表現得更好。
[–]NuggetsEricStoltz-MaskMorty 184 指標 6小時前
ESPN is worse than ever. They also predicted the Lakers to miss the playoffs just so people would talk about it. They just feature dumb opinions to get people riled up and talking, hence why Stephen A and Skip are so prominently featured.
ESPN是真的爛到家了。他們還預測湖人無法打入季後賽，這樣就能引起大家的爭論了。他們傳播愚蠢的觀點就是為了激怒人們展開討論。這就是為什麼Stephen A和Skip Bayless是頭牌。
[–][NYK] Lou AmundsonLominattii 88 指標 5小時前
Skip doesnt work for espn
哥們兒有一說一啊，Skip Bayless可不為ESPN打工（實為Fox Sports）。
[–]NuggetsEricStoltz-MaskMorty 155 指標 5小時前
Psh. Don't let facts distract you from my unnecessary whining...
行行。事實歸事實，我不必要的抱怨歸抱怨，請不要溜號。
[–]GenericUsername10135 100 指標 6小時前
These lists purposely include hot takes, that is how they get people talking about and clicking on their articles.
這個榜單刻意地囊括了挑口水的觀點。只有這樣ESPN才能讓人們樂意為此爭論還心甘情願地送上點擊量。
[–][OKC] Russell Westbrookmrpengo88 345 指標 6小時前
DeMar gets ranked 39th, leads his team to the first seed in the East and makes second team All-NBA, stays 39th.
雷霆球迷：德羅贊去年就排在第39名，之後他帶領球隊成為東部頭號種子，自己也入選了聯盟第二陣容。你猜怎麼著？嘿，今年還是第39!
[–]RaptorsNo_Fence 102 指標 6小時前
Shit's ridiculous. Demar is a winning (regular season) player... He's been one of the two best players on a Raptors team that's a consistent top 4 seed. Put Otto Porter on that team and tell me they get the first seed in the East last season.
猛龍球迷：太荒唐了。德羅贊是個能贏球的球員（我說常規賽）……他是猛龍兩位最好球員中的一個，同時球隊穩定保持在前四種子的行列。把德羅贊換成奧托-波特，你覺著猛龍還能佔據東部榜首的位置嗎？
The Raptors schooled the Wizards these playoffs with minimal contributions from the bench mob, and still people will claim that Beal, Wall and Porter are all better than DeRozan. Makes you wonder how the Raptors are better than the Wiz every year if Lowry isn't top 5 or some shit.
近幾年的季後賽裡奇才被猛龍瘋狂地教做人，猛龍的板凳匪徒們甚至都沒怎麼發力，然而人們還是認為比爾，沃爾和波特都要比德羅贊強。我就好奇了，如果洛瑞不是聯盟前五或者其他什麼妖魔鬼怪，猛龍是怎樣做到每年都比奇才強的。
[–][TOR] DeMar DeRozanDoyinYale 126 指標 6小時前
I can’t believe people on this thread are seriously justifying Otto being ranked higher than DeRozan.
It reminds me when people were justifying Crowder being ranked over DeRozan last year.
猛龍球迷：不敢相信這個帖子裡還有人一本正經地為波特排名比德羅贊高辯護。
這讓我想起來去年人們為克勞德比德羅贊排名高費盡口舌的樣子。
[–][TOR] Dell CurryModernPoultry 45 指標 5小時前*
B L O G B O I S
Im a blog boi myself but a lot of guys pigeonhole themselves looking at the game on a spreadsheet and not putting enough value in the in game application and value of having elite dribble perpetrators and shot creators.
猛龍球迷：就是一幫鍵盤俠唄。
我自己也是鍵盤俠，但很多人只盯著數據而沒有足夠認識到具體的比賽過程、運球製造突破機會和創造投籃機會的重要性。
Despite the hate they get, guys like Kobe, to a lesser extent Westbrook and to an even lesser extent DeMar, win you basketball games by the stress they put on defenses. More so than advanced statistical darlings that do well with the max usage they can generate within an offense, that lets face it are becoming easier to come by (the catch and shoot 3&Ds...your Roco's Porter's, Prince's, Aminu's, Ariza's, Harris', OG's etc)
儘管很多人都憎恨諸如科比威少和德羅贊這類球員，但這仨人能為你贏球（贏球能力依次遞減），靠的就是他們帶給防守端的壓力。咱就打開天窗說亮話吧，那些高階數據十分看好的球員們就算是在最大化使用率情況下的進攻端貢獻也沒什麼可稀奇的。（那些接球就投的3D射手，也就是波特、托里恩-普林斯、阿米奴、阿里扎、託拜厄斯-哈里斯、OG-阿奴諾比這類的）
[–]76ersretroracer 94 指標 4小時前
From their companion article:
"To put it bluntly, DeRozan's advanced stats don't match up to his reputation, for two reasons. The minor reason is that his offensive production -- his midrange game -- has not been especially efficient. The major reason is that he has been a disaster on defense.
摘自ESPN的排行文章：
“坦率簡單地說，德羅贊近兩個賽季的高階數據都與他的名聲不相符合。一小部分原因是他的進攻端產出——他習慣中投的比賽風格——並不是十分的高效。而主要原因則是他在防守端是一個徹徹底底的災難。
According to RPM, he is consistently one of the worst defenders at shooting guard and plays D at a level that costs his team dearly. The Raptors often played better with DeRozan sitting than with him on the floor."
根據真實正負值體現，德羅贊一直是得分後衛位置上防守最差的球員之一，他在防守端的貢獻實際上深深地傷害了他的球隊。在德羅贊坐在板凳上的時候，猛龍經常打得更好。
[–][CLE] Kevin Lovequentin-coldwater 48 指標 3小時前
I think people don't understand/appreciate the difference between mediocre defense and bad defense.
I've seen a lot of outright bad defenders be called "so-so" defenders on here.
騎士球迷：我覺得，人們根本搞不懂/不重視中流防守和糟糕防守之間的區別。
我經常看到話題區的諸位把許多慘不忍睹的防守者委婉地稱為“一般般的防守者”。
[–]carmensandiegosbro 36 指標 3小時前*
This is it exactly... Points scored and media hype are what DeRozan has over Otto, nothing else. Even that is 15pts vs 22pts per on 2x the possessions used. The Raptors won games because their second string outscored opponents by 2x the margin of any other second-string in League, not because they had one of the least effective leading scorers in the league, who gets cooked on D, and can't shoot. It's the basketball equivalent of curls for the girls, meanwhile the world's strongest man looks like Shrek.
完全同意……得分和媒體炒作是德羅贊唯二比波特強的地方，沒別的了。而且即使如此，15分和22分的對比也是基於德羅讚的使用率兩倍于波特的前提下。猛龍能贏比賽是因為他們的板凳陣容得分是聯盟其他球隊板凳陣容得分的兩倍以上，而並不是因為他們有全聯盟效率最低的得分高手之一作為領袖，這位得分高手防守端一灘爛泥，進攻端還無法投籃（三分）。就好像女孩留捲髮但世界上最強壯的男人看起來像無毛的史萊克。
Otto is 15% better from 3, and 10% better in eFG%. Way better rebounder. Can guard all 5 positions and play 4 on offense. Otto is an elite defender who ironically shut DeRozan down on the regular. DeRozan is a high volume inefficient scorer who can only play the 2 (but can't shoot?) and who can't guard most of the wings in the league.
波特比德羅贊在三分球命中率上高出15%，在有效投籃命中率上高出10%。籃板上更是完爆德羅贊。波特能防守五個位置的球員，在進攻端還能頂上去打4號位。波特同時還是一名精英級別的防守者，而諷刺的是，他經常能徹底防死德羅贊。德羅贊是一個走量的低效得分手，他只能打二號位（而且還不具備三分能力？），沒辦法防守聯盟裡絕大多數的側翼球員。
The Raptors win games because of their depth and D, and lose in the playoffs because their "stars" are inefficient and can't play D. Otto is the opposite. Maximum impact per minute, and beating DeRozan handily in win share per 48 and VORP. Effective and efficient is King.
猛龍能贏得比賽純碎是因為他們的陣容深度和防守，他們在季後賽裡輸球就是因為他們的“明星球員”打球低效還不具備防守能力。波特是他的反面。他每分鐘都能最大程度地影響球隊，在每48分鐘勝利貢獻值和替換價值上完勝德羅贊。高效有作用的產出才是王道呀。
[–]LakersMrBigWaffles 28 指標 3小時前
They don't even play the same role tf. Otto is a complimentary role player to John wall and beal.
If we were to ask Otto porter to carry a teams offence the same way derozan does, all those highly efficient numbers youre seeing would fall off a cliff.
湖人球迷：搞特麼什麼啊，他們的角色本身就不同啊。波特是一個能補強沃爾和比爾的角色球員。
如果我們讓波特像德羅贊一樣扛起球隊進攻端的大旗，你看到的那些高效的數據會掉落懸崖一樣往下墜的。
Use context in your arguments, don't just spit out numbers.
你的論點必須結合環境來考慮，不能一味地搬數據。
[–]Hornetsjocro 11 指標 4小時前
I think that assessment undervalues the value of shot creation.
Can't speak specifically to defense, but I'm generally skeptical of any tell all metric on that end, and the team may have played better with him off the floor due to the talent level of their bench mob.
我覺得那項評估標準低估了自主創造投籃機會的價值。
我對防守上的事兒說不準，但我一般對防守端所有的所謂能指明一切數據指標都保持懷疑態度，而且當德羅贊不在場時猛龍之所以打得更好也是因為他們一干替補匪徒的爆表天賦。
[–][CLE] Larry Nancethreeoneleads 17 指標 3小時前
They've been better with him off the floor for several years though, even before they got the bench mob that good
騎士球迷：其實猛龍沒德羅贊打得更好這個現象已經持續好幾年了。早在猛龍的板凳匪幫很出色之前就是如此了。
[–]CavaliersFlakyGround 36 指標 5小時前
I think Otto is more conductive to winning basketball and would fit well in any system unlike DeRozan.
騎士球迷：我認為相比於德羅贊來說，波特對於勝利的貢獻更加顯著，而且不同於德羅讚的是，他能與任何一個戰術體系無縫對接。
It's difficult to compare the two because they play different roles, but for me it isn't hard to see why some people would have Otto as the better player. DeMar is a horrendous defender, not very efficient (and insanely inefficient in the postseason), and his teams have historically been better with him off the floor.
對比他們兩人的能力其實挺難的，因為他們各自扮演不同的角色。但我也不難理解為什麼有人會相信波特是一名更好的球員。德羅贊是一個糟糕透頂的防守者，並不十分高效（在季後賽裡低效到令人髮指），當他不在場時球隊也時常能打出難以置信的優秀表現。
DeRozan is obviously better if you need someone who can put up a shot and be aggressive for the whole game, he puts more pressure on the defense etc. I probably rank DeMar lower than most people on here, but I can see the case both ways in this situation.
當你需要一個能自己投籃，全場保持侵略性並給防守帶來很大壓力的球員時，德羅贊無疑是更好的選擇，他能給對面的防守帶來更大的壓力。相比話題區大多數人的排名，我或許會把德羅贊排在更低一點的位置，但我也能理解兩種不同排名存在的理由。
[–]76ersIsh_but_the_1st_time 18 指標 4小時前
Yeah I don't think it's that crazy either for these exact reasons. You probably can't build an elite system around Otto. But players like him can be starters on an elite team.
They're ranking players based on how they contribute to 5-on-5 team success. Some elite role players are naturally going be ranked above some underwhelming "stars".
是啊結合這些原因來看，我也不認為這個排名有這麼瘋狂。你或許不能圍繞波特來組建一支精英級別的球隊，但波特這樣的球員可以在一支精英球隊裡擔當首發。
ESPN是根據球員們在五對五比賽中的勝利貢獻來排名的。一些精英級別的角色球員自然而然會被排在一些發揮不佳的“明星球員”之上。
[–]carmensandiegosbro 15 指標 3小時前
You can't build an entire system around the DeRozan either. No championship team is anchored on inefficient mid-range Jumpers and horrible defense.
你也不能圍繞德羅贊來組建球隊體系啊。沒有一支冠軍球隊的基石是一名防守糟糕的低效中距離投手。
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