Robin Daverman, world traveler“Why didn't ancient China produce great conquerors similar to Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great?”
Robin Daverman，世界旅行者“為什麼古代中國沒有出現像凱撒和亞歷山大這樣偉大的征服者？”
Where is Caesar’s empire now? And where is Alexander’s empire now?And where is China now?
凱撒的帝國如今在哪？亞歷山大的帝國又在哪？而中國可還健在呢。
Just because Caesar and Alexander were lionized, doesn’t mean that these guys were indeed good for their country, or their people, or even their own family. Objectively, they started a process that over-taxed their national wealth, over-glorified violence, and bled too much the blood of their young men. And you know what they say: live by the sword, die by the sword. They set up an incentive system where you got paid by killing other people. So their own families went genetically extinct pretty soon, wiped out by their own “family and friends”, and their empires died in a firestorm of violence.
僅僅因為凱撒和亞歷山大被奉若神明，大家才認為他們是偉大的征服者。然而這並不意味著那些舉動對他們的國家、人民和家庭有好處。客觀地說，他們過度消耗了國家財富，過度美化暴力，消耗了過多年輕的血液。你知道他們的格言：依劍生，與劍死。他們甚至建立了一個鼓勵殺人的機制，所以他們自己的家庭很快就被從基因上滅絕了，被自己的“家人和朋友”消滅了，而他們的帝國在一場暴力風暴中崩潰。
It’s like playing Monopoly. If you spend all your money occupying “property”, leaving nothing to “develop the property”, you go bankrupt pretty quickly. The Chinese never had the urge to take territories it can not develop, and developing a place usually takes at least ten times more time, effort, and money than just conquering it. Pretty much every single Chinese emperor who started a war, stopped the war and returned the state back to peaceful state within his own reign, urgently halting the cycle of violence and destruction. All the places the Chinese went, they immediately started making farmland, building roads, planting fruit trees, setting up schools, marrying with the local people, and appointing local officials selected through national exams, who would then be uated on the composite KPI right away. And keep doing it for the next 300 years at least. They ended up with developed land and civilized people, making them cash cows instead of money sinks. Basically, the way the KPIs were set up in ancient China, is that you really only get paid if the place you manage became rich, peaceful, and filled with learned people. Otherwise it’s not worth it. All successful Chinese dynasties ended up with their direct offspring numbering in millions, or even tens of millions, today.
這就像玩大富翁。如果你把所有的錢都花在佔有“財產”上，沒有別的東西來開發它，你很快就會破產。中國人從來沒想要去佔領他無法開發的領土，開發一個地方比征服它至少要多花上十倍的時間、精力和金錢。幾乎每一位發動戰爭的中國皇帝都在他的統治時期停止了戰爭，讓國家重回和平狀態，緊急制止了暴力和破壞的循環。中國人每到一個地方，就會立刻開始修建農場，種植果樹，鋪設道路，建立學校，與當地人通婚，任命通過了國家考試選出的官員來管理此地，並對這些綜合性的關鍵績效指標（KPI）進行評估。接下來（指佔領後）的300年裡他們會一直這樣做。300年後，他們收穫了得以充分開發的土地和文明的民眾，讓此地成為國家的搖錢樹而不是無底洞。基本上，中國古代的KPI計算方式就是，要是你管理的地方變得富有、和諧、人民智慧知禮，你才能得到報酬，不然就別想升官了。每個成功的朝代在結束時，都能擁有數百萬甚至數千萬的人口。
The funny thing is that 2,000 years later, each still behaves in the same way. Places like Afghanistan, next door to China, even if you PAY the Chinese, they wouldn’t take it. And you have NATO staying there for 16 years already, bleeding and paying the Taliban not to attack them, and allowing their own homeland to be filled with Afghan refugees and awash with Afghan-grown Heroin! That’s how they “defend Europe” 5,000 km’s away!
有趣的是，在2000年後的今天，中國人仍是這麼幹的。像中國隔壁的阿富汗這種地方，你就算倒貼給中國人，他們也不會要。北約已經在阿富汗呆了16年，在那裡流了數不盡的血，還付錢給塔利班求他們別攻擊你。你們讓自己的家園充滿了阿富汗難民和阿富汗種植的海洛因，這就是所謂的在5000公里外 “保衛歐洲”？
French outcry over claim Italian payments masked Taliban threat
法國強烈要求意大利支付塔利班蒙面威脅的勒索
Afghanistan opium production jumps 87 per cent to record level – UN survey
阿富汗的鴉片產量躍升87%再創新高——聯合國調查
The Plot is so ridiculous you can’t even sell it to a Hollywood studio, and yet here we are, in real life.PS: The sudden drop of Opium production in 2001 was due to Taliban banning it. Taliban's Ban On Poppy A Success, U.S. Aides Say
這種劇情太扯了，賣給好萊塢都沒人要，但它卻切切實實的發生在我們的現實生活中。PS：上圖中2001年鴉片產量突然下降是由於塔利班的禁止。
Brandon Li, I have enough of an education to know how to use Google and the libraryThe problem is that too many people accept the Chinese national myth that China is a peaceful nation that has never attacked others. This is patently false. China didn’t emerge from the primordial muck fully formed as the third largest nation on the planet. It became so large by conquering and integrating land that was inhabited by other peoples.
Brandon Li，接受了足夠的教育懂得如何使用Google和圖書館這個問題實際上是太多人相信了中國宣傳的神話，認為中國是一個從未攻擊他人的和平國家。這明顯是錯的嘛，中國從原始時期變成如今世界第三大的國家的過程並沒比別人乾淨到哪裡去，他們征服和合並了其他民族的土地，使得他們的領土如此之大。
The first great conqueror of China was Ying Zheng, the king of Qin. Roughly contemporaneous with Alexander of Macedon, he conquered all the states of the North China Plain by 220 BC at age 38 and proclaimed himself Qin Shihuang. In the next few years, he campaigned southwards and expanded the Chinese world further than it had ever reached. By the time he died, the Qin Empire stretched from the edge of the Eurasian steppe into the jungles of Vietnam. This realm was similar in size to Alexander’s empire and had a similar aftermath. Neither empire outlasted its founder’s death for long, but although the expanded Hellenic world created by Alexander collapsed within 300 years, the Sinosphere continued to expand over millennia.
中國第一位偉大的征服者是秦王嬴政。大致與馬其頓的亞歷山大在同一時期，他於公元前220年征服了華北平原的所有國家，並在38歲時自稱秦始皇。接下來的幾年裡，他向南推進並進一步擴大了中國的領土。在他去世時，秦帝國從歐亞大草原的邊緣一直延伸到越南的叢林。他的帝國與亞歷山大大帝的的帝國幅員相仿，結局也差不多。這兩個帝國都沒有在它們的創始人死後維持多久，但亞歷山大創造的希臘世界在300年內崩潰了，中華文化圈卻在幾千年裡一直不斷擴大。
Later emperors would rule even larger polities. For example, Li Shimin, who founded the Tang Dynasty alongside his father whom he would go on to depose went on to rule an empire even larger than Rome’s. Tang soldiers occupied swathes Korea, the jungles of Vietnam, and even marched across thousands of miles of desert and mountains to subjugate territories in Afghanistan and Central Asia. Although the Tang never settled the Mongolian steppe to their north, they succeeded in annihilating the Eastern Turkic Khaganate that ruled it, eliminating the nomad threat for generations. All of this was accomplished in a single lifetime.
之後的皇帝會統治更大的政體。比如和其父一起建立唐朝的李世民，統治了一個比羅馬更大的帝國。唐朝軍隊佔領了韓國、越南叢林，甚至穿越數千英里的沙漠和山脈，征服了阿富汗和中亞的領土。儘管唐朝沒有擴張到北方的蒙古草原，但他們成功摧毀了草原上的東突厥汗國，消除了世世代代的遊牧威脅。所有的一切都是在李世民的一生中完成的。
The Tang are in yellow while the subjugated polities on their borders are in brown
唐朝為黃色，周邊被征服的政體為棕色
The real issue is the over lionization of certain Western military figures. The campaigns of Hannibal, Julius Caesar, and Alexander have been studied and repeated so often that they have attained a certain mythic aura around them. They were certainly some of the most gifted military minds in human history, but the rest of the world held some serious talent too. Men like Cyrus, Khalid ibn al-Walid, Chandragupta Maurya, and Li Shimin conquered huge tracts of land and helped build long lasting empires, but are often left by the wayside in discussions of great conquerors out of no fault of their own.
真正的問題是某些西方軍事人物被過分拔高了。漢尼拔、凱撒和亞歷山大的歷史被無數次研究，以至於他們已經被加上了某種神秘的光環。他們無疑是人類歷史上最具天賦的軍事天才，但世界上其他國家也有人才。建立波斯帝國的居魯士、“安拉之劍”哈立德、建立孔雀王朝的旃陀羅笈多、李世民等人征服了大片土地，並建立或幫助建立了長久的帝國，但他們常常在“偉大征服者”的討論中被忽視。
Zhou Wenda, studied at University of Science and Technology of China (2014)Nam Viet killed envoy of Han, it was massacred and now administrated as nine counties.King of Yuan (today’s Fergana Valley) killed envoy of Han, his head is now hanged on the north gate of our capital.Joseon (Korea) killed envoy of Han, it was annihilated instantly.The same fate yet only remains to fall on Xiongnu (Huns)!You clearly know I shall not surrender. Your threat to me with death indicates that you are ploting another war between Han and Xiongnu.Then after me, Xiongnu is doomed!—— Biography of Su Wu, Book of Han Dynasty
Zhou Wenda，曾就讀於中國科學技術大學（2014）南越殺漢使者，屠為九郡；宛王殺漢使者，頭縣北闕；朝鮮殺漢使者，即時誅滅。獨匈奴未耳！若知我不降明，欲令兩國相攻。匈奴之禍，自我始矣！——《漢書·蘇武傳》
Su Wu was an envoy of Han. He had been put under detention by Xiongnu for 19 years (100BC-81BC) before his return. It was easy to understand why the Huns kept Su Wu alive. Although he was very incooperative, Xiongnu had no desire to join with NamViet, Yuan and Joseon.
蘇武是漢朝出使匈奴的特使，在他回國之前被匈奴拘留了19年（公元前100年-公元前81年）。我們可以很容易就理解為什麼匈奴會讓這個不配合的使節活著：匈奴不想成為南越、大宛和朝鮮（那樣被剿滅）。
Su Wu was released as a gesture for seeking peace when Emperor Zhang of Han succeed the throne. However, Han refused to set aside the enmity. The 5th Emperor of Western Han Dynasty was just as determined as his father, Emperor Wu the Great, in continuing the Hundred Years War against Xiongnu.
當漢章帝登基時，匈奴擺出了尋求和平的姿態，釋放了蘇武。但是漢朝不肯放下敵意，西漢的第五位皇帝和他的父親——偉大的漢武帝一樣，決心繼續抗擊匈奴的百年戰爭。（譯註：這裡原作者有些事實上的錯誤，蘇武是在漢昭帝在位時被釋放的，昭帝是西漢第六位皇帝）
Carried out by 5 emperors, after 130 years (200BC-71BC) of clash on desert and steppe, Xiongnu was rooted out from the southern side of Gobi Desert. Things weren’t over yet. 161 years later (91AD), in Altay Mountains, Eastern Han Dynasty eventually destroyed the very last Xiongnu khanate. Huns were driven into a long migration towards the other side of Euroasia.
經過五位皇帝的努力，歷經130年（公元前200年-公元前71年）的沙漠和草原衝突後，匈奴從戈壁沙漠的南側被連根拔起。這還不算完，161年後（公元91年），在阿勒泰山脈，東漢最終摧毀了最後的匈奴漢國。匈奴人被驅趕到歐亞大陸的另一邊。
（譯註：如果說是《漢書·匈奴傳》中所稱的“是後，匈奴遠遁，而幕(漠)南無王庭“，則是在公元前119年由霍去病率領的漢軍大破匈奴左賢王之戰，屬於武帝時期。西漢時期滅北匈奴則是在公元前36年，陳湯滅郅支單于，“犯我強漢者，雖遠必誅”的豪言壯語就出自此戰。北匈奴最後出現在中國古書中，是在公元89年-公元91年的依附於漢朝的南匈奴與漢朝夾擊北匈奴之戰，自此北匈奴被迫西遷）
Talk about “conquerors” in front of such a war. If you read ancient Chinese history books, you will find they were blood-soaked. You can easily smell it between the lines. What makes you think that in such bloodshed the outstanding military genius wouldn’t spring up?
在這樣的戰爭面前談論所謂“征服者”，呵呵。如果你讀過中國古代的歷史書籍，你會發現它們字裡行間是如此血腥。是什麼讓你覺得在這樣的流血中沒有傑出的軍事天才？
People shouldn’t interpret the self-claim “China is a peace loving country” in a naive way. China is a civilized nation, not a pacifism nation. Proven by history fact, “we Chinese love peace” actually means “we have no interest in hemorrhage as long as peace still works”.
人們不應該幼稚的理解“中國是愛好和平的國家”這一主張。中國是一個文明國家，而不是和平主義國家。歷史證明，“我們中國人愛好和平”實際意味著“如果和平有效的話，我們對流血就不那麼感興趣。”
Do you remember Art of War by Sun Tsu in 6th century BC? It’s probably the earliest cookbook about how to dissect an unfriendly country step by step on planet Earth. Just think about it: Without given more than enough practicing experience, how could such delicate experience be summarized?
你還記得公元前就出現的《孫子兵法》嗎？這可能是地球上最早出現的，如何料理一個不友善國家的食譜了。試想一下，如果沒有足夠的實踐，怎麼能總結出這些精妙的經驗呢？
In the earliest dynasty of China, it was something like this in 21st century BC: (Red was the presumptive territory of Xia, other colors were sphere of influence)
在公元前21世紀，那時的中國是這樣的：（紅色是夏朝的推測領土，其他顏色是其影響範圍）
In 21st century AD, the map of China is something like this:
而在公元21世紀，中國是這樣的：
Any rational people would agree that there must be some reasons China could grow from pic1 to pic2. Based on common sense, it should take a load of “great counquerers” to expand territory like what China had done.
任何理智的人都會贊同中國在從圖1變成圖2的過程中發生了一些小故事。根據常識，這裡面有一大群“偉大的征服者”對中國的版圖做出了貢獻。
I shall make it short for the wrong premise of your question.China had not only “Alexander and Caesar” type of conquerors,but also another type of conqueror which was much superior than the previous ones: They managed to deeply assimilate the place they counquered with China. That was something the over-lionized Hellene and Roman were not capable to do.Today, Roman is a historical if not archaeological topic.Today, Macedonia is a small country with 1 million population.Today, China is… you know, just China.The conquer from ancient China was something much more thoroughly than what westerners familiar to. Caesar and Alexander flaunted “I’m standing on top of you” in their lifetime, but their greatness became nuance of history just several generations later.On the contrary, those great conquerers in ancient China, backed by their military accomplishment, they had achieved something higher:“Now, we are one.”
我會簡單的回答你這個前提就不對的問題。中國不僅有“亞歷山大和凱撒式”的征服者，還有遠比這厲害的地方：他們把與之為敵的地方都同化為自己的一部分了。這是那些被吹上天的希臘人和羅馬人做不到的地方。今天，羅馬只存在於考古發現的歷史裡。今天，馬其頓只是一個100萬人口的小國。今天，中國是……，你知道的，它還是中國。中國古代的征服比西方人所熟悉的那一套要徹底的多。凱撒和亞歷山大在他們的有生之年標榜“我站在你們頭頂”，但他們的偉大成就將在幾代人後成為歷史的塵埃。相反，中國古代偉大的征服者在他們的軍事成就之外，取得了更高的成就。“現在，我們是天命所歸。“
轉自西諾網
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