© Javier Callejas. MA
“Architecture Is to Put in Order a Room, a House, a City”: In Conversation with Alberto Campo Baeza
由專築網小R編譯
馬德里建築師Alberto Campo Baeza於1946年出生於西班牙Valladolid，成長於Cádiz，於1971年畢業於Politécnica de Madrid大學，並且在1982年獲得了博士學位。Campo Baeza在馬德里高等技術建築學院教授建築學長達40多年。他把建築看做是一種理念，通過最為基本、清晰的方式表達出來，並且紮根於基本元素，其中包含矩形空間，以及有著空腔和無框架切面的厚重牆體，另外還有由支柱支撐的面板。其作品避免了一些色彩、複雜曲線與材料，主要起強調體量之間的基本關係，也強調了光線的應用。Campo Baeza的作品大多關於透明性與精準性，準確地應用平面、直線等等。其作品相對較少，規模較小。但是，其作品十分完整並且深刻。
Madrid architect Alberto Campo Baeza was born in 1946 in Valladolid, Spain and grew up in Cádiz. He graduated from Universidad Politécnica de Madrid in 1971 and earned his PhD there in 1982. Campo Baeza has been teaching architecture at the Higher Technical School of Architecture of Madrid, ETSAM for more than 40 years. He sees architecture as building ideas and expressing them in the most essential and clear ways, consistently relying on such basic elements as firmly grounded rectangular platforms, thick solid walls with deep cavities and frameless cutouts, and flat thin planes propped up by delicate posts. Colors, complex curves, and diversity of materials are largely avoided to accentuate primary relationships between elementary prisms and to exalt magic out of sunlight. Campo Baeza’s architecture is about transparency and precision, as well as asserting such fundamentals as ground planes, straight lines, and precise corners. He has built relatively few projects and, for the most part, on a small scale. Yet, his legacy is remarkably complete, consistent, profound, memorable, and inspirational.
© Javier Callejas. MA
Campo Baeza獲得了許多知名獎項，其中包括2019西班牙建築金質獎，其最為著名的作品是Infinite之家（Cádiz，2014）、教堂之間的公共空間（Cádiz，2009）、Olnick Spanu住宅（加里森，紐約，2008）、安達盧西亞博物館（格拉納達，2010）、Benetton幼兒園（Treviso，意大利，2007）、Caja Granada總部（Granada，2001）、De Blass住宅（馬德里附近，2000），以及Gaspar住宅（Cádiz，1992）。這位建築師出版了許多著作，例如《建築原理》、《建築理念》、《建築詩學》，以及最新的《Sharpening the Scalpel》。以下是作者在其馬德里工作室中與其的對話。
Campo Baeza is a recipient of numerous prestigious awards, including the 2019 Gold Medal of Spanish Architecture. His most prominent built works include the House of the Infinite (Cádiz, 2014), public space Between Cathedrals (Cádiz, 2009), the Olnick Spanu House (Garrison, New York, 2008), the Museum of Memory of Andalucía (Granada, 2010), a nursery for Benetton (Treviso, Italy, 2007), Caja Granada Headquarters (Granada, 2001), De Blass House (Near Madrid, 2000), and Gaspar House (Cádiz, 1992). The architect has authored numerous texts published in such of his books as Principia Architectonica, The Built Idea, Poetica Architectonica, and the latest Sharpening the Scalpel. The following is a condensed version of my conversation with Alberto Campo Baeza at his compact studio in Madrid where he practices architecture with a handful of his collaborators.
© Javier Callejas. MA
Vladimir Belogolovsky（下文稱為VB）：大約在10年前，你去了紐約哥倫比亞大學Avery圖書館學習，你可以談談這次經歷嗎？
Alberto Campo Baeza（下文稱為ACB）：這些年我在ETSAM教書，後來在哥倫比亞大學進行了兩次學術訪問，分別是在2010年和2011年。在我第二次去的時候，我決定不參加各種各樣的演講，也不做項目，我把全部的時間都花在思考建築中，在那段時間裡，我寫了《建築原理》，其中總結了我多年來的想法。
VB：那你作品的背後有哪些指導理念呢？
ACB：建築不應該反覆無常，每個項目都有特定的場所與功能，每個項目背後也都有科學依據，設計基於理性，建築師必須有著完整的邏輯，美學並非烏托邦，但是烏托邦也並非不可能。通過新技術，烏托邦也能存在，美學則可以通過邏輯、理性、比例、尺度而實現，建築師必須認真與深入。
Vladimir Belogolovsky: About ten years ago, you took a sabbatical to study at Columbia University’s Avery Library in New York. Could you talk about that experience?
Alberto Campo Baeza: Over the years that I’ve been teaching at ETSAM, I spent two of my sabbaticals as a visiting scholar at Columbia University – in 2010-11 academic year and in the early 2000s. During my second time, I decided not to be interrupted by various invitations to give lectures or undertake other tempting projects and devoted my time entirely to thinking and contemplating about architecture. During that time of reflection and calmness, I wrote my book Principia Architectonica to distill ideas that I have accumulated over many years of practice.
VB: What are some of the guiding principles behind your work?
ACB: Architecture should not be capricious; every project should be like a diagnosis for a particular site and program. There is science behind every project. Design is based on reason. You have to look for an idea capable to be built. Beauty is not a utopian idea. Utopia is not impossible. With new technology utopia can be built. Beauty can be achieved with logic, rationality, harmonious proportions, and appropriate scale. You have to try to be serious, deep, and sincere.
© Javier Callejas. MA
ACB：是的，但是我更願意成為一位普遍的個體，而不是個性化個體。高迪是一位天才，但是過於個性化了。如果建築太過獨特，那麼就失去了普遍性。在我的作品中，我儘量簡約、安靜、抽象，其實就是接地氣。當然這只是起點和基礎，如果要獲得真正的美學，那麼就需要想象力和靈感，我十分關注透明性和連續性這些主題。密斯並不需要依賴於傳統的理念，因為他能夠通過技術來實現透明性和連續性。Konstantine Melnikov則希望讓自己的作品鞭策光鮮亮麗，“脫掉大理石外衣，像優雅的女神一樣展示自己”，建築應當是嚴肅的，它並非無趣，它具有美學意義，柏拉圖認為：“美是真理的光輝。”意思就是說，美學是理性的表達，而非直觀的形態。
VB: Wouldn’t you agree that for one architect to be sincere means to be essential, reserved, and super analytical, whereas for another – it is about being expressionistic, casual, and intuitive.
ACB: It is true, but I would rather try to be universal than personal. Gaudi was a genius but too personal for my taste. When architecture is too unique, it loses a sense of universality. In my work, I try to be simple, quiet, abstract; in short, universal. Sure, this is just the starting point, just the foundation. To achieve real beauty you need imagination, you need inspiration. I focus on such themes as transparency and continuity. Mies did not need to rely on traditional enfilade because he used technology to achieve transparency and continuity. Konstantine Melnikov strived for his architecture to be bare, “to take off her marble dress, remove her make-up and reveal herself as she is, naked, like a young and graceful goddess.” Architecture should be serious, which is not the same as boring. It should be consequential; it should be beautiful. Plato said, “Beauty is the splendor of the truth.” In other words, beauty is the reflection of reason, not a mere intuitive gesture.
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa Gaspar
VB：你認為美學是被大部分人所接受的東西嗎？還是說建築師能夠決定這個東西是不是美的？哪個重要呢？
ACB：柏拉圖說到民主的時候，他說民主並不是一個好方法。我會懷疑大部分人的想法，我相信，我們都認為密斯的巴塞羅那紀念館是一座好看的建築，更是傑作，但是路人會贊同嗎？我不是很確定。
VB：你說過，“建築的歷史是一場努力變得更加輕盈的戰爭。”你認為你的作品關於什麼呢？其背後的主要目的是什麼？
ACB：很簡單，讓人們快樂。這聽起來很天真嗎？但是這是事實，這不是為了自己的虛榮心，也不是為了自我滿足，它需要讓人享受，我的許多項目都是住宅，你可以想想看，如果住在這座房子裡的人害怕觸摸其他東西會是什麼樣的感受。但是我可以保證，我的客戶在我設計的住宅裡都很開心，我的建築師在讚頌自由，他們可以有無數種應用空間的方式。我的Infinite之家其實就是一個平臺，它位於海邊，所以它是一個面向海洋的平面空間，不多也不少。這座住宅不能建造在其他地方，其位置十分獨特，它能夠享受大海和陽光。你可以從頂部進入室外客廳，然後進入住宅，它通過三種方式組合而成，中央入口、左側圓形劇場、右側的游泳池，這也是對David Hockney的游泳池繪畫的致敬。
VB: Do you think beauty is something that is accepted by the majority of people or an architect can decide whether something is beautiful and that’s what matters?
ACB: When Plato spoke of democracy, he said that it is not a guarantee for a good way or the best solution. I would be suspicious of what the majority thinks. I am sure, you and I can agree that the Barcelona Pavilion by Mies is a beautiful building. It is a masterpiece, of course. But would people on the street agree with us? I am not so sure about that.
VB: You said, “History of architecture is a fight to try to be lighter, lighter, and lighter.” What would you say your work is about? What are the main intentions behind your architecture?
ACB: Very simple – to make people happy. Does it sound naïve? But it is true. It is not for my own vanity, not for my own satisfaction. It is for people to enjoy. Many of my projects are houses. Imagine if people who live in my houses would be afraid of touching everything. I can assure you that my clients are happy in my houses. My buildings are a sort of hymn to freedom. People can live in my houses in a thousand different ways. My House of the Infinite in Cádiz is basically a platform, a podium because it is at the border of the sea. So, it is an infinite plane facing the infinite sea. It is like a jetty shooting into the sea. Nothing more, nothing less. This house could not be built anywhere else. It is very particular to its location. It is built to enjoy the sea, the climate, the sun. You enter the house from the top, which is designed as the outdoor living room; it is carved in three ways – the entry in the center, the amphitheater to the left, and the swimming pool to the right, which is a homage to the iconic pool paintings by David Hockney.
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa Gaspar
VB：那除了快樂和自由，你的建築還關乎什麼呢？
ACB：我的建築十分中立，我不會強加任何東西，對於任何特定的生活方式都沒有限定，我的住宅住起來很舒適，限制是幸福的先決條件。
VB：你會針對每個項目進行點評嗎？你的建築越來越輕盈？
ACB：我並不認為我們能夠談論任何特定的項目，隨著年齡的增長，一些事情變得愈發清晰，每個項目都是新發現。我不想重新創造，我想要發現的都並非原始，而是一些必不可少的東西，重要的是，每個項目都有挖掘新東西的潛力。
VB: Apart from happiness and freedom what else is your architecture about?
ACB: My architecture is neutral. I try not to impose anything. There is no insistence on any particular style of life. My houses are easy to live in. Restraint is a prerequisite of happiness.
VB: Could you comment on progress in your work from project to project? Is it about making your buildings lighter and lighter?
ACB: I don’t think we can speak of any particular progress. As one becomes older, certain things get clearer. Every project must be a discovery. I’m not trying to be original. I try to discover not originality, but things that are essential. What’s important is that every project becomes a potential for discovering something new.
© Roland Halbe. Caja Granada
VB：那這也說明了你的作品比較少，且規模較小的原因。
ACB：幾年前，一位建築師告訴我，“Alberto，我設計了兩千多座建築。”我記得當時在想，“我的媽呀！兩千多座建築！”因此我決定看一下我的筆記，發現自己只完成了37個項目，我覺得這簡直是個災難，後來我閱讀了Bill Bryson的一本書，莎士比亞傳記，書上寫道，“你相信嗎，莎士比亞只寫了37部戲劇。”那我就感到很開心了！（笑）我認為對於自己做的事情開心是最重要的，你要相信自己的作品，認真對待每個項目。
VB：這是在很多年前，從那時起你做了多少項目呢？
ACB：一些吧，大概有45個項目，比莎士比亞多一些！（笑）
VB: This attitude explains why you built relatively few projects and predominantly on a small scale.
ACB: A few years ago, a fellow architect told me, “Alberto, I have built two thousand buildings.” I remember thinking, “My God, two thousand buildings!” So, I decided to go over my notes and files and discovered that I completed only 37 projects. I thought, “What a disaster!” Then I read something interesting in a book by Bill Bryson, the biographer of William Shakespeare. The book stated, “As you know, William Shakespeare wrote only 37 plays.” All of a sudden, I felt so satisfactory! [Laughs.] I think it is important to be satisfied with what you do. You have to believe in your work and be serious about each and every project.
ACB: A few more, so I have built about 45 projects, more than William Shakespeare! [Laughs.]
© Fernando Alda. Caja Granada
VB：你說過，建築的質量通過其功能來決定，它能阻止時間的流逝。但是許多建築師的關注點恰恰相反，他們希望保留運動的瞬間，你怎麼看呢？
ACB：我說過時間的暫停，當然，這是從哲學角度而言。如果你看看羅馬萬神殿，其美學具有普遍性，它的未來也是如此。那麼你怎麼做到一些基本又特別的東西呢？人們常常把創新和異國情調混為一談，但是我不是這一派，我說過，我想要做的東西都不是最初的創意，而是基本的內容，你無法擁有不能實現的想法，但是如果你沒有想法，那更不可能實現。
VB：你的建築形式簡約。但是你也認為你的作品十分抽象，但是不是極簡主義，這是為什麼呢？
ACB：我不喜歡極簡主義這個詞，我的目標不是成為完美的極簡主義者，我覺得這很罪孽，但是我也不覺得很羞恥！（笑）對我來說乾淨和純粹比較重要，有時它甚至很顯而易見，這很重要，有什麼比陽光下的展示更重要的東西呢？沒有光就沒有建築，就像沒有空氣就沒有音樂一樣，樂器是很好的建築隱喻，作為建築師，我們設計建築就像是作家在寫書，目的是清晰的表達，這就像是醫生的手術刀一樣。我們會調整想法，調整尺寸和比例，選擇合適的形態，在時間截止之前你都會不斷地調整，你的建築具有表達性，什麼是建築呢？對我而言，只是將某個東西有條理的表達出來即可，就是做好一間房、一個家、一座城。
VB: You said that the quality of architecture is measured by its capacity to stop the passage of time, to hold time in suspension. But so many contemporary architects are concerned with exactly the opposite – they try to capture movement and dynamics of the fleeting moment. What do you think about that?
ACB: When I speak of suspension of time it is, of course, in philosophical terms. If you look at the Pantheon in Rome, its beauty is universal, and it will remain so in the future. How do you achieve something fundamental, something special? People confuse originality with frivolity or being exotic. But I’m not original or exotic. Again, I try to discover not originality, but the basic things. You cannot have an idea incapable of being materialized and you cannot materialize it if you haven’t got an idea.
VB: Your buildings are basic in their forms and minimalist in their details. Yet, you maintain that your architecture is abstract but not minimalist. Why is that?
ACB: I hate the word minimalist. My goal is not to be a minimalist or purist and perfect. No, no, no, I am a sinner. I am not ashamed of that! [Laughs.] What is important for me is to be clean, simple, and sometimes, even obvious, there is nothing wrong with being obvious. what can be more obvious than working with the sunlight? There is no architecture without light, just like there is no music without air. I think a musical instrument is a good metaphor for a building because as architects we tune our buildings just like writers write and rewrite their texts to be ever clearer, specific, and sharp, just like the surgeon’s scalpel. We are all tuning and sharpening our ideas – perfecting dimensions, proportions, distances between columns, choosing between square or rectangular forms, how to hide corner joints, and so on. You tune and tune until the time comes and your building has to perform. What is architecture? To me, it is to bring things in order and clarity – to put in order a room, a house, a city.
© Hisao Suzuki. Caja Granada
© Hisao Suzuki. Caja Granada
© Marco Zanta. Benetton Daycare Center
© Marco Zanta. Benetton Daycare Center
© Marco Zanta. Benetton Daycare Center
© Marco Zanta. Benetton Daycare Center
© Javier Callejas. EC
© Javier Callejas. EC
© Javier Callejas. EC
© Javier Callejas. MA
© Javier Callejas. EC
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. Casa Olnick Spanu
© Javier Callejas. House of the Infinite
© Javier Callejas. House of the Infinite
© Javier Callejas. House of the Infinite
© Javier Callejas. House of the Infinite
© Javier Callejas. House of the Infinite
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa Gaspar
© Hisao Suzuki. Caja Granada
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa De Blas
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa De Blas
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa De Blas
© Hisao Suzuki. Casa De Blas
© Alberto Piovano. Caja Granada
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