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“我覺得應該推動《基本法》23條立法，承擔起保護國家安全的責任。”
Editor’s Note: Since violent protests first broke out in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) four months ago, radical voices and actions advocating for the destruction of the Asian financial hub in a so-called fight for “democracy” seem to have dominated headlines.
However, endless voices of reason and rationality are calling to rebuild the city and for an end to the violent unrest. Ian Fok Chun-wan, CEO of the Fok Ying Tung Group and one of the most influential figures in Hong Kong, is among those who dare to speak out and criticize the rioters and their backers.
He spoke to the Global Times in a recent interview. Fok, who is also a deputy of the National People’s Congress, China’s top legislature, condemned the violence and the ill-intentioned political goals of some radical elements advocating for the independence of the HKSAR.
香港政治風波已持續4個多月。這場暴亂接下來會朝什麼方向發展？將對香港政治和經濟的長期發展構成哪些影響？帶著這些問題，環球時報-環球網記者日前在香港專訪了港區全國人大代表、霍英東次子、霍英東集團行政總裁霍震寰。
霍震寰接受環球時報-環球網專訪
GT: The anti-mask law has now taken effect. What direction do you think the situation in Hong Kong will take? Do you think the unrest will end by itself or that the HKSAR government will need to use more powerful measures?環球時報-環球網：自《禁蒙面法》生效後，您怎麼判斷接下來香港局勢走向？
Fok: After the anti-mask law was implemented, there was a short-term, very strong rebound of street violence and the intensity of violence also increased, which led many in the opposition to feel [the protesters] went overboard. For instance, the incident in which a radical protester slashed a police officer’s neck on October 13 is just unbelievable. How much hatred is there? So, the number of protesters has gone down. I believe that more people will, over time, realize the peaceful and rational spirit of Hong Kong has been damaged, and more people will be willing to sit down and resolve the problem, pushing the situation toward a positive turn.
霍震寰：《禁蒙面法》實施後，街頭暴徒短期強烈反彈，暴力程度上升，這導致很多反對派也覺得過火了。比如13日發生激進示威者割警察頸部的事情，想來不可思議，到底有多大仇恨？所以，現在示威參與者已經減少。我相信慢慢有更多人會意識到香港和平理性的精神已經遭到破壞，願意坐下來解決問題，進而使局面好轉。
On the other hand, I also hope the HKSAR government will step up their actions in various aspects. First, it should enhance communication. Second, we see that the police bear tremendous pressure and hope the government will coordinate more agencies to support the work of the police.
另一方面，我也希望政府能在各方面加強行動，一是加強溝通，二是現在警察承受很大壓力，政府可以協調更多部門配合支持警察的工作。
GT: In your view, what long-term, deep-seated problems in Hong Kong have been revealed in these riots?環球時報-環球網： 您認為這場暴亂暴露出香港哪些長期和深層問題？
Fok: First, our educational system has some serious problems. This has led to some young people having strong, unthinkable hatred toward their country. Before, the British government always limited Hong Kong people’s understanding of China, so many young people lack an objective, accurate understanding of China.
霍震寰：一是我們的教育有很嚴重的問題，導致有些年輕人竟然對國家懷有強烈的、不可思議的仇恨。當年英國政府一直在抑制港人對中國的瞭解，今天很多年輕人對中國仍然沒有一個客觀正確的認識。
I first went to the mainland in the 1970s, and I have witnessed the earth-shaking, great development there over the years. I have seen that Chinese people’s level of happiness is completely different to how it was decades ago. Certainly, there are also imperfect areas in China but I am sure that this generation of Chinese people is the happiest yet.
我上世紀70年代就去過內地，看到這些年國家翻天覆地的巨大發展，中國人的幸福感和幾十年前完全不一樣。當然中國也有不完善的地方，但我很肯定這一代的中國人是最幸福的。
The media in Hong Kong is also problematic. In some cases, the irresponsible [exercise] of the right to free expression has failed to comprehensively reflect the truth. That has led some to believe blindly that Western democracy is the best form of democracy.
與此同時，香港的傳媒也有問題，有時候不負責任的言論自由導致不能全面反映事情真相，一些人盲目相信西方式民主是最好的方式。
From an economic and social standpoint, since the global financial crisis in 2008 and the US Federal Reserve’s adoption of quantitative easing, the wealth gap in Hong Kong has been widening like in many places around the world. On top of that, with the rise of social media, many young people have grown more self-centered.
從經濟和社會角度來說，2008年全球金融風暴和美聯儲實施量化寬鬆之後，香港和全世界其他很多地方一樣，貧富差距加大，加上互聯網社交媒體的興起，年輕人在性格上也變得更加“自我”。
Some have started to lose hope for their future and feel that they have not benefited from the economic development of Hong Kong. Therefore, they feel that destroying [Hong Kong] has no impact. That is also why they are willing to accept the idea of “mutual destruction” (a slang term that implies the promotion of social destabilization and a collapse of Hong Kong’s economy is a necessary step toward “real democracy”).
一些年輕人覺得自己的未來沒什麼希望，香港經濟發展得好也分不到什麼，所以搞垮也就沒有什麼影響，這是他們願意“攬炒”（同歸於盡）的原因。
[They] are not willing to do many jobs, such as construction and working on boats. These jobs actually pay quite well but they require tough work. I think that many do not possess the fighting spirit of Hong Kong like [people did] back in the day.
現在很多工作沒有年輕人願意做，比如建築工人、船工，待遇其實不錯，但是比較辛苦。我想現在有些年輕人已經沒有當年那種拼搏精神了。
GT: The opposition and protesters claim that they are protesting because they are unhappy with the level of democracy. What’s your take on that? How do you see the direction of Hong Kong’s democracy and political process?
環球時報-環球網：反對派和示威者聲稱走上街頭是因為不滿香港的民主水平。您如何看待他們的說法？
Fok: Hong Kong’s democracy needs to progress step by step. I do not believe that Western democracy is a perfect fit for Hong Kong. Also, there is a precondition for Hong Kong’s democratic progress that must be realized. Hong Kong is not an independent country but a city in China. The chief executive we elect must be recognized by the country. Otherwise, it would be more disadvantageous for Hong Kong. In fact, we once had a very suitable plan of universal suffrage in 2014 but regrettably it was not adopted due to opposition from the pan-democracy camp.
霍震寰： 我不相信西方式民主完全適合香港。香港的民主進程需要認清一個前提，即香港不是獨立國家，而是中國的一個城市，我們選出的特首當然要得到國家認同，否則只能對香港不利。事實上，2014年我們曾有過一個非常適合香港的普選方案，但可惜由於泛民的反對流產了。
In Hong Kong’s democratic progress, I think we must better and more comprehensively understand the “one country, two systems” principle. At the moment, we are focused on “Hong Kong people administering Hong Kong” and “a high degree of autonomy” but lack consideration of our role under “one country.” As recently as within the last century, Deng Xiaoping made it clear that Hong Kong can criticize the government but will never be allowed to be turned into a base to counter the country and overthrow state power.
我認為在香港民主進程中，我們需要更好、更全面地認識“一國兩制”。現在我們更多關注的是“港人治港，高度自治”，但對如何在“一國”下發揮作用卻思考得比較少。
Therefore, I think we should push forward legislation regarding Article 23 of the Basic Law in order to bear the responsibility of safeguarding national security. Hong Kong cannot become a pawn for foreign penetration to be used to undermine China’s security. Although we see the shadows of many foreign powers in the riots, I want to be clear that a “color revolution” will definitely not succeed in the HKSAR and in China.
所以，我覺得應該推動《基本法》23條立法，承擔起保護國家安全的責任。香港不能成為外國滲透影響中國安全的“棋子”，儘管在當下暴亂中我們可以看到許多外國勢力的影子，但我想說的是，“顏色革命”在香港、在中國一定沒可能成功。
GT: If the social unrest continues, how will it impact Hong Kong’s status as an international financial center and global commercial hub? Some argue that, as China’s only international financial center, Hong Kong’s status will not be impacted by the unrest. What’s your take on that?
環球時報-環球網： 如果社會繼續動盪，會對香港國際金融中心和國際商業大都市的地位造成什麼影響？
Fok: The most important thing for an international center is stability. Without stability, investors will lose confidence, which will lead to capital outflow. Instability will also lead to the loss of talent. In fact, one of the main reasons behind Hong Kong’s success over the past few decades has been its ability to attract talent for all sectors from all over the world. If the unrest persists, many workers might choose to leave. How will Hong Kong remain an international financial center then?
霍震寰：金融中心最重要的就是穩定，否則投資者會喪失信心，進而導致資金外流和人才流失。過去幾十年，香港成功的一大主要原因就是可以吸引全世界各個行業的人才，我想如果動盪長期持續下去，可能很多人會選擇移民，屆時香港還如何成為國際金融中心？
We must know that there are many cities that want to replace Hong Kong and rely on the massive Chinese market to become global financial center, including Singapore and London. Are we really going to destroy ourselves at this time?
要知道，現在想取代香港成為國際金融中心的城市有很多，新加坡很願意承擔這個角色，倫敦也在爭取。難道我們要自己把自己搞垮嗎？
GT: During the early days of the reform and opening-up, Hong Kong was already one of the “Four Asian Tigers,” while the mainland’s economy was backward. Within four decades, the GDPs of mainland cities such as Shanghai and Shenzhen have exceeded that of Hong Kong. How do you view that comparison?環球時報-環球網：
改革開放初期，香港是“亞洲四小龍”之一，內地經濟還很落後。40年間，上海、深圳等城市的GDP已經超過香港。您如何看待這樣的變化？Fok: In the last century, Hong Kong’s GDP was larger than that of Singapore, but Hong Kong has been slowing down in recent years. Not only did Singapore surpass us in GDP, our neighbor Macao has also seen fast growth due to its gaming sector. One of the most important reasons behind this is that we have devoted too much energy to fighting among political parties and to the so-called fight for “democracy.”
霍震寰：上個世紀，香港GDP超過新加坡，但近些年的腳步放慢，不僅新加坡的經濟追上了我們，隔壁的澳門也迅速發展。這其中一個重要原因，就是我們把太多精力投在政黨之爭上，投在所謂爭取“民主”的過程中。
A case in point: it’s not that we don’t want to resolve the land-supply issue – but when the plan involves land reclamation, some oppose it, citing environmental protection. Expropriation of land also faces various difficulties. And the bottom line is that some don’t dare to challenge [their opposition] because of the Legislative Council election.
舉一個最簡單的例子，香港的土地問題並非大家不想解決，但涉及到填海就會有人用環保來反對，徵地也會遇到各種困難。
On the other hand, what I have seen on the mainland over the years is a completely different scenario. I visited the new Beijing Daxing International Airport. Such a massive infrastructure only took a few years [to build]. In Hong Kong, it could take decades. The boldness and spirit of the mainland is something from which Hong Kong should learn.
相反，這些年我在內地看到的是完全不同的場景。我參觀了北京新的大興機場，這樣規模龐大的基礎設施建設才花了幾年，在香港可能需要幾十年。內地的魄力與精神是香港應該學習的。
來源：環球時報-環球網/趙覺珵 白雲怡 王聰
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