提要：本文為一系列的建築師訪談、自述輯錄，均為中文世界未見輯錄，由筆者親自翻譯，此篇為第二集，第一篇收錄了約翰·伍重的一篇論文和一次電視臺訪問。此係列中涉及約翰·伍重的部分，是按著悉尼歌劇院的進程來進行的，此篇將收錄兩篇篇訪談，一篇為電視臺訪問，另一篇則是在約翰·伍重退出悉尼歌劇院工程後的採訪，於悉尼歌劇院竣工之時。希望能給讀者看到的是，一個建築師從春風得意到因為客觀原因而失敗，這種變化的現實，或可有一些啟發。
因筆者翻譯、聽譯能力均有限，儘管經過多次校對，仍難避免有紕漏、誤會之處，不足的地方，歡迎提出意見。
第一集連接：「Z的建築史」大師的自我認知—國外建築師自述及訪談集錄（一）
約翰·伍重
【輯錄三】
【建築師：約翰·伍重】
【時間：一九六二年】
【地點：澳大利亞，悉尼】
【人物：約翰·伍重、哈里·阿什沃斯】
【形式：電視節目】
依舊是約翰·伍重在參加有關於悉尼歌劇院的電視節目。
意氣風發的建築師
【畫外音】：
Jørn Utzon,a man who thinks and lives only for architecture, these days only for the architecture of The Opera House,it's from these deep absorption in all aspects of his vacation that he has draw his desires. This is a man who can see and enjoy the architectural merit and mechanical possibilities in the shape of a twig，who can resolve from theory and calculation a creation unlike anything in the world， a creation which in many ways is like the man himself. The massive bass is like Utzon's grounding in the solid world of mathematical and physical properties and the laws of stress.
約翰·伍重，一位只為建築思與活的男人，在這些日子裡專注於歌劇院的設計，他之所以能夠描繪他的欲求，正是來自於他對其假期中所經歷的方方面面之深切領悟。這是一位能夠認識並且徜徉於樹枝形態的建築優點與機械潛力中的男人，能夠從理論和計算中透析出這世上獨一無二的造物，在許多方面都如他自己一般的造物。這重低音（譯者Z注：背景音樂為器樂奏曲，此時正在重低音的部分）就像伍重在數學、物理以及應力定律的堅實世界中之根基。
The splendid ceremonial approach is like the rise to knowledge and eminence of this international prize winner and at the top the lights graceful tough and almost fantastic shapes of The Opera House roof symbolized the vision which has grown from the solid foundation.
這華麗的入場儀式就像這位國際大獎的勝者在知識和聲望上的躍升，而歌劇院屋頂那奇異瑰麗宛若幻境的形狀以及頂部那優雅、堅韌的燈光則象徵著從堅實基礎上所生長起來的願景。
We listen to him as he talks to professor Ingham Ashworth.
我們於此傾聽他與英格拉姆·阿什沃斯教授的對話。
【約翰·伍重】：
You look down on The Opera House from any part of town. You see it from the bridge，from the office buildings，from a new scheme, from the new Rocks scheme and it's ability to recede from there. And it's so exposed, so there were almost no backside, you could not conceal anything and you even looked on the roof which meant that you had to create something like a sculpture which could be seen from our side, and besides that it sits in a harbor with buildings or a square character and you don't want to have the name Opera House wrriten on it. You want to see this is an Opera House，like you see, this is a church, so i had, i want you to come out from the uniform family of office block to stand out as personality.
你從鎮上隨便什麼位置俯瞰歌劇院，從橋上，從辦公樓上，從新規劃，岩石區的新規劃上，還可以更往後退去看。它是如此敞露，所以在那兒幾乎不會存在背面，你不能隱藏任何東西，你甚至俯瞰完了整個屋頂，這意味著你必須從我們能看到的這個方向上創造一座雕塑。
並且除此之外，它坐落在一座帶有建築或是廣場角色的港口裡，你並不想要把歌劇院的名字寫上去。你想要一看就能知道這是個歌劇院，就像你一看就知道這兒是座教堂似的。所以我，我想要你能以自己獨有的性格矗立在這兒，從千篇一律的辦公樓盒子中脫穎而出。
【輯錄四】
【約翰·伍重】
【時間：一九七三年】
【地點：丹麥】
【人物：約翰·伍重、記者彼得·勒克（Peter Luck）】
【形式：採訪】
記者彼得·勒克於一九七三年悉尼歌劇院完工，也就是約翰·伍重於一九六六年被“趕”出悉尼歌劇院項目的七年之後，在丹麥找到了機會去採訪約翰·伍重。
悉尼歌劇院的失敗來自於多方面的原因，政治對建築計劃的干涉使得伍重失去了對於自己項目的話語權，執政黨的更替使得新政府不願意為這個項目過多投入，這座本可以成為那個世紀最偉大工程的建築，卻因此而失去了其創造者的庇護。
唯一值得慶幸的是，這一切都是在悉尼歌劇院外部工程完成以後才發生的，但這樣一個漂亮、令人感到無法用言語形容的外在，內裡卻是一塌糊塗，而最終，在沒有伍重的指導和庇護下，工期和費用反而節節飆升，導致了這座建築的巨大殘缺。
卻徒留下了一個無可奈何的、傷心的建築師，他至死也沒有去親眼看過完工的悉尼歌劇院，即使是在與澳洲政府關係緩和後，也是由他的兒子金·伍重(Jan Utzon）去到悉尼解決一些問題。
我們知道，建築師總是很為難的，我們面臨著來自於各方面的挑戰，有些並不是出於設計上的挑戰，而是牽扯到政治、人情、經濟，我們總是在其間周旋，希望能夠平衡各方而得到一個足以令自己滿意的或者是說——對得起使用者的設計。
但約翰·伍重所受到的這種待遇、這種侮辱，面對著一群不專業的政府人士來質疑他的設計，甚至想要全盤推翻他對於室內的構想，這完全是出於有預謀的政治目的，而他們這群短視的玩弄政治的人，最終也嚐到了其後果。
他離開了，當一位建築師被迫從設計過程中離開自己的作品，這就宛若喪子之痛！我們難以想象伍重在一九六六年離開的時候是有多麼的憤怒和傷心，但當我們去代入自己心碎時的感受，我們必然能夠體會這種心情。
在此，我不得不提起貝聿銘的盧浮宮改擴建工程，這個項目最大的阻力並非是來自於設計，而是與人民群眾、公共輿論、多達七位館長之間的政治角力，這個項目涉及到了歷史學、社會學、工程學等等幾乎保羅萬千的學科，而最終建築師證明了自己，他出色地協調了各方的關係，從而使得建築本身得以成為其本身，讓人民得以享受其餘蔭。
我在此輯錄關於約翰·伍重的一系列訪談，不單單是想要讀者親歷這一令人心碎的過程，而是希望能夠去思考其間約翰·伍重本人的看法與觀點，思考其失敗的原因。
誰也不希望這世界上再出現於悉尼歌劇院身上發生的這樣令人失望、憤懣的事情，而我們能做的，就是去努力地思考如何規避這樣的事情，這才是我的目的。
好了，情之所至，話多了一些，讓我們進入採訪吧。
約翰·伍重和彼得·勒克在海邊
【彼得·勒克】：
Mr. Utzon, it's now six years since you left one of the greatest architectural projects of 20 century, and we never really did get to say about it. Advice do you，now you can say what you like to about a million Australians, what would you say?
伍重先生，自您離開二十世紀最偉大的工程之一（譯者Z注：悉尼歌劇院）已逾六年了，在此之前我們從沒有確實地聽過您談論這件事。建議您，如果您現在如果願意對著數百萬的澳洲民眾提起的話，您會說些什麼呢？
【約翰·伍重】：
I left with a great regret，i fought for a perfect idea，and，i fought for one year in the strongest head wind，and the ideas i works with my team of marvelous years，but they were very hard years and we gave up only because i couldn't see the alterations. Em, Mr.Davis who is wanted, i couldn't see they were good for The Opera House.
I thougt our program and the committees, Mr. Haviland，committees, program，Mr.remus and the labor government's work would be ruined by alterations，and i think actually it's proved now in my opinion. I could not personally see that it was any idea to continue，and, and make something inside that didn't fit the outside，faces the shell tear down. I already built stage town and leave an empty of shell， the media hall，shell，a big shell is empty is in my opinion a very false.
我是帶著巨大的遺憾離開的，我為了一個絕佳的想法而鬥爭，我在整整一年的鬥爭中舉步維艱，我和我的團隊為了這個想法努力，經過了非凡卓越但也艱苦卓絕的歲月，而我們的退出只是因為我不願見到那些變更。呃......戴維斯先生所想要的，我無法認同它們對歌劇院是有好處的。
我認為我們的計劃和委員會，委員哈維蘭先生（譯者Z注：悉尼歌劇院初期所成立的委員會主席），計劃，萊姆斯先生，以及工黨政府，他們的工作都將被這些變更毀掉，而在我的看法中，這也確實變成了現實。
我個人沒有任何想法繼續下去，以及，以及去做一些讓室內與室外相脫離的工作，眼睜睜看著外殼被毀掉。我已經建築了一個大平臺，而徒留下一個空殼子，也就是媒體大廳，殼，一個巨大的空殼在我看來是個巨大的錯誤。
Instead of one big box, i had small lysis sculpture，em，which could be seen from everywhere on the upper.Because it's a, you sail around it，you see it from the skyscrapers，you see it from around in Sydney. So i couldn't make a square box with a flat roof，i had to do something like roof，like another elevation. And then i made them white，because i knew light in the Sydney， would be very beautiful from seeing the light here reflection from the，the，sea.
我用分解的雕塑來替代一個大盒子，呃，你能從高處的任何地方看見它。因為它是一個，你圍繞著它航行，你從高樓大廈之上看見它，從悉尼的四圍看見它。所以我不能做個平頂的方盒子，我不得不去對像是屋頂這類東西動些腦筋，像是另一種立面。接著我把他們變成白色，因為我深諳悉尼的光線，看見光線從，從海上反射到這兒將會是十分美麗的。
【彼得·勒克】：
Shows all my，slack clouds on top.
我眼前全然浮現的是頂部的浮雲。
【約翰·伍重】：
Yeah，a little bit，bit more radiant，and i gave them tiny tiles white slice，because Sydney harbour is dark，and you know yourself that they play with the sun，and the rain，and they，they are always playing a new tune，always in harmony with the weather and the light.
是的，有一點，一點的光芒四射，而且我給了他們小瓷磚覆蓋的白色切片，因為悉尼港是昏暗的，然而你自己明白它們同陽光和雨水嬉戲，並且它們，它們總是奏出新的曲調，總是與天氣及光線和諧共生。
【彼得·勒克】：
Isn't this perhaps we're almost the impossibe dream started with those shells? I mean originally them as light suspended shells，they proved to be vary heavy shells not exactly suspended and vary costly.
這難道不是我們與這些外殼所一起開端的近乎於異想天開之夢嗎？我的意思是最初設想的懸浮的薄殼，它們後來被證明是很重的外殼，並不完全是懸浮的，還特別貴。
【約翰·伍重】：
yeah......
是......（想要打斷，但沒來得及）
【彼得·勒克】：
When you did that original drawing，did you have really any idea how to make that shells？
當你在進行最初創作時，你真的有任何怎樣去實現這些外殼的構想嗎？
【約翰·伍重】：
Yes，i，i thought we could make them as thin concrete shells，but they were too flat，the things they coverd，and the size of the base made them somehow too flat，we couldn't get enough height in the shells，so they were not stiff，being sincere. So we tried with engineers two and half years to make double shells and other things, and then the engineers one day came and said we give up, go somewhere else, and this has never came out, this was really terrible situation, and we were half finished the base, and i was sitting there with，a big problem.(大笑）
But i have been working with the problem also for many other angles，and i had actually made 15 different suggestions，and after i had produced this last idea of ribs as you know as they are now. Mass produced in bits，where everything is okay，the structure works，you can prefabricate them and that beautiful in the curves to cut. After i found that solution to a lot of work，i presented to the engineer or open partners，and they said okay，we put a new team on and i got a very good new team on——Mr.Utzon’s，and we worked two and half years and start the build shells，and there were successful structures.
But fortunately in a way，they were my structures，becaused i mastered them all the details，i could give them in harmony with main interiors，I knew where were, i was not in arms of an engineer, who, just give me some dimensions i had to follow, but i got him a very good collaboration .
And appeared, laid on one of trouble also was that the minister Davis Hughes，got a report from the next team from Arup's. The supervision team，mr. big Lewis，that my minor hall would collapse，it was too heavy，and Mr.Lewis，came from south africa，he had nothing to do with The Opera House before. as a new man, he was not used to that type of collaboration,and he, he couldn't understand we had already, we were already in a enormous project with a very strong idea, we couldn't deviate from that, and i didn't get collaboration from him, i needed，under glass walls, and the interior , and this was one of baddest,bad,very bad things.
是的，我，我以為我們可以把它們做成混凝土薄殼，但它們太平了，被它們覆蓋的東西和基座的尺寸使得它們不知怎地變得太平了，我們無法從這些外殼內得到足夠的高度，所以確實地說，它們不夠堅硬。
因此我們和工程師們奮鬥了兩年半的時間同時去解決外殼和其它的事情，之後有一天工程師們來了，說我們放棄了，請另尋高明吧。而這在之前從未發生過，情況真的糟透了，但我們已經完成了臺基的一半，我卻坐在那兒，面臨著，一個巨大的問題。（大笑）
但我也已經嘗試從很多其它的角度上來解決這個問題，而我確實提出了十五種不同的設想。
之後我提出了你們現在所知道的已採用的肋之構想。單元被批量生產，一切都解決了，結構起了作用，你能夠預製它們，那些美麗曲線就被切割出來了。在我找到很多事情的解決方案後，我向工程師和開放合作伙伴們提交了它們，他們說這沒什麼問題，我們組建了一個新的團隊，我得到了一個非常好的新團隊——“伍重先生”。之後我們一起工作了兩年半，接著開始構築外殼，於是這兒有了一個非常美妙的結構。
但幸運的是，這是屬於我的結構，因為我掌控了所有細節，我能夠讓它們和主要的室內空間和諧相處，我知道哪是哪，我不是那種全然依靠工程師的人，他會給我一些不得不遵循的維度，但我和他合作得很好。
不過有件麻煩事出現了，是戴維斯·休斯部長，從奧雅納（譯者Z注：悉尼歌劇院主要的結構工程顧問公司，奧雅納本人是悉尼歌劇院的主結構工程師，但他選擇了退休，所以這時他的工作被移交給了合夥人：麥克爾·劉易斯（Micheal Louis）身上）的下一個團隊那兒得到了一份報告，監察組，大劉易斯先生，報告說我的小禮堂會垮掉，它太重了。
而從南非來的劉易斯先生，在之前與歌劇院可說是一點兒關係也沒有。作為一個新人，他並不習慣合作的方式，他並不明白我們已經，我們已經在一個有著成熟強大理念的巨型項目中了，我們不能偏離這一點。不過我沒能從他那兒得到我需要的合作，包括玻璃幕牆和室內空間，這真是最、最糟糕的一件事了。
【彼得·勒克】：
What was the final straw with？What，what cause the final break？
壓垮整件事的最後一根稻草是？是，是什麼導致了最後的決裂？
【約翰·伍重】：
well，i would say that the final break was arup's,i would say that if arup‘s if ave himself as he was asked to do from many corners, high side look among others asked to do this, if he had said to the client,that they couldn't go on this building without me, em,that would,i would have continued. They had very strong position，i had supported them，they had down a great work for many years，they were very respected back client，but they also had somehow given the client the feeling，that they were doing a whole lot，and i‘ve just never working，that's Miss Levis said. i was there working for,me，as their cart horses, which was wrong, We were doing it together. But，of course，Mr.Davis Hughes，when he asked Ove Arup & partners and contractor if they could do without，go on without Utzon ，and，and they said yes.
好的，我會說最終的決裂是奧雅納那幫人造成的，我會說如果奧雅納，如果奧韋他自己，當他從多方面被要求去做這件事，能從一個宏觀視角去看待其它人要求他做的這事兒。如果他對客戶說這事情沒有我就沒法繼續了，呃，這將，我將會繼續下去。
他們處於非常強勢的地位，我已經支持了他們，他們多年來完成了一項偉大的工作，他們支持客戶，令人尊敬。但他們也不知何故地給了客戶一種感覺，就是他們把事情都做完了，我從沒工作過，這是劉易斯小姐（譯者Z注：口誤）說的。
我在這兒工作，我，就像他們拉車的馬兒似的，這是不對的，我們是在一起合作的。但是，當然了，戴維斯·休斯先生，當他詢問奧雅納公司和承包商，問他們能不能在沒有伍重的情況下繼續進行工程，而，而他們表示可以。
【約翰·伍重】：
i，i don't feel any bitterness，because in principle i，i never demand anything，i was very very luckcy to get that job，and i made a marvelous people，and had a very fantastic life and experience，and i‘ve continued my work. So, when you are an artist or an architect, you do something and it's always the next work which is more interesting.
我，我沒覺得有任何苦澀的感覺，因為原則上我，我從未奢求任何東西，能得到這份工作我感到幸運非常，我變成了一個奇蹟般的人，有了非常奇妙的生活和經歷，而我也繼續在做我的工作。所以，當你作為一個藝術家或是建築師，你幹了一些活兒，但下一個活兒始終是更加有趣的。
【彼得·勒克】：
What has it to meant to your career in tangible terms? Does it hindered you as it made you？do people still want you to do building? What's happened to your since?
從實際的角度上講，它對於你的職業生涯意味著什麼？它阻礙了你嗎？人們依然想讓你設計建築嗎？之後你經歷了什麼？
【約翰·伍重】：
I intended with terms, i, i think i got in my very young age, i got a challenge which i took up, and i solved the problems, which i didn't know before, i did next to know if i was an architect before, i'm sure now i can feeling myself being an architect.
我的意思是，我，我認為我在一個非常年輕的年紀，接受了一項挑戰，我解決了我以前從未涉及的問題，然後我想知道之前我是否能做個建築師，現在我能夠確信自己是一名建築師。
【彼得·勒克】：
Do you think this was wrong on your part to even attempt something you couldn't, you knew you......
你認為去嘗試一些你力所不能及的事情是錯的嗎？你知道你......
【約翰·伍重】：
NO, because you know，all everything you belongs to the future is, is, you have to try, and i found really that i can consider myself an architect, perhaps not the best, but i consider myself a really good architect, and what it gave me，in form of experience and security, that i know what i want to do, it gave me also a reputation abroad, outside australia, and i got，I got many fine jobs，in Saudi Arabia bulid a big stadium, and should i make a stage theater？And lebanon i make a small theater and schools and so on. And there are also many diffcult projects, Leslie Martin’s，Professor Martin‘s , just invited me for a big competition in Kuwait, and by this competition, five other architects , one rise. and we've delivered it, and this is a scheme which is bigger than The Opera House just. But i haven't got any, any, invitations from Australia, hey, i feel very sorry because......
不，因為你知道，對於你來說，任何屬於未來的事情都是，都是有必要嘗試的。而我真的發現了我可以把自己當作一個建築師了，可能不是最好的，但我認為自己真的是一個優秀的建築師。而這件事也給了我，經驗與安全感。我知道我想做什麼，它也給予了我海外聲譽，在澳大利亞之外，我得到，我得到了一些非常好的工作。
在沙特阿拉伯有一個大體育場的設計，我應該做一個舞臺劇院嗎？而在黎巴嫩我設計了一個小型劇院和一些學校，諸如此類。但這兒也有一些非常困難的項目，萊斯利·馬丁斯的，馬丁斯教授的，他剛邀請了我參加位於科威特的一個大型競賽。而通過這次競賽，其它的五位建築師，只有一位能脫穎而出，而我們已經提交了方案，並且這個項目就比歌劇院的規模還要大。但我還沒有得到任何，任何來自澳大利亞的邀約，嘿，我對此感到抱歉，因為......
【彼得·勒克】：
DO you think would you design another building in Australia?
你認為在澳大利亞你還會設計其它建築項目嗎？
【約翰·伍重】：
Yeah, i, i got. Because of my experience with The Opera House, i got to know and to like very much Australians and Australia, and the climate. I see actually Australia as one of the big, biggest countries for an archiect.
是的，我，我認為會。因為通過我在歌劇院的經歷，我開始瞭解澳大利亞的風土人情，我非常喜歡這裡，也非常喜歡這裡的氣候。我確實認為澳大利亞對一位建築師來說，是最大的國家之一。
而之後，約翰·伍重至生命結束時，也再沒有在澳大利亞有過新項目，甚至連這片土地也未曾踏及。
